Comments on: Web 2.0, edupunk and acting

By: Martin Lindner

Martin Lindner — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:48:22 +0000

as someone who had his creative coming-out with New Wave (not Punk, for which i was both too late and too timid then), i’d like to insist that Stephen’s interpretation of NewWave as ‘doing your own thing, politely, within an institutional context’ is not perfectly true. the uncompromising creativity of, say, Gang of Four, Wire, Joy Division and even the Dexy’s Midnight Runners, to name a just few, was certainly not second to Punk (which has been really creative only for a short period of time).

that said, there are three interesting observations about this metaphor:
(1) all Edu 2.0/Web 2.0 activists i know are *heavily* into (underground) pop. i think, there is some inner logic to that: an ecosystem based on quck creation on the spot, sharing, seeking resonance, heated circulation, based on microcontent (like songs/tracks) … it was like a playful laboratory for the Web.
(2) Martin Ebner is *not* listening to Punk (or to New Wave, for that matter). I know his blip.fm playlist.
(3) What I do fear is not the Talking Heads, but the poU2 of EduPostpunk. (Probably this is already under way, in some new FP7 “Networks of Excellence”.)

By: Frances Bell

Frances Bell — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:22:18 +0000

Well I certainly agree we’re in danger of getting tied up in the terminology. My own mini journey through Edupunk has brought me to the Digital Literacy layby – another contested term.
@StephenDownes – is having ‘institutional origins’ a litmus test for quality or ‘punkness’?
To me what is important is being critical and reflective alongside the fun experimentation and creativity http://francesbell.com/2009/04/14/still-blogging-my-way-through-edupunk-and-re-finding-digital-literacy/

By: Jim

Jim — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:21:04 +0000

I have to agree with Graham that the musical metaphor is only useful to a degree, and that degree has long past. There is no one way to understand a space of exploration and experimentation, and while I have deep reservations about institutionalizing such a logic, I think institutions like mine have up and until now allowed these possibilities to flourish. I don;t think there is an either/or proposition here, and I think conflating an approach to edtech with the co-option of the music industry isn’t all that fair. This is born of a space to re-imagine one;s relationship to institutions, and therein lies its power. for while I agree with Stephen that the work must be part of one’s self, we can’t sit here and presume to make so judgment calls on others. It leads to all kinds of unnecessary and unproductive positioning of who’s more EDUPUNk than who. I could care less about that dynamic, I am, however, excited that people both in and outside of institutions are imagining a third space for creativity, expression, and a new logic of sharing/ownership. And if that is associated with EDUPUNk or EDU New Wave, so be it. The experimentation and expression is key, and this field could only benefit from a wide variety of this kind of thinking. There is no one way to skin this cat, and you can’t live a wrong life rightly.

By: Stephen Downes

Stephen Downes — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:56:27 +0000

Steve, only you know whether you’re punk or new wave, because only you know how much of your work is of yourself, and how much of your work has more institutional origins.

I’m not trying to create a whole set of terminology here, but I think the historical parallel is useful. Punk was co-opted by the record companies and became new wave. When that happens to edupunk, we can fairly say it’s edu new wave.

By: Steve Wheeler

Steve Wheeler — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:50:12 +0000

Does that mean that my approach, which seeks to subvert institutional services and to really ‘Do it Yourself’ using a mix of ‘free’ external services is *real Edupunk* then? I appreciate the distinction Graham Atwell has made between Martin’s approach of integration and my own. But Edu New Wave? I think we are in danger of becoming tied up in the nomenclature here. There are shades of edupunk in everything we do, whether we are simply bolting on a wiki to the institutional VLE or going it alone.

By: Stephen Downes

Stephen Downes — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:14:44 +0000

Yeah, but you have to admit, the parallel is there.

Punk was ‘doing your own thing’. New Wave was ‘doing tour own thing, politely, within an institutional context’.

What we’re seeing from Martin Ebner is Edu New Wave. That’s not necessarily bad. Lots of people liked Talking Heads and Human League. And it’s better than Edu Disco.

(I, however, am not one of them).