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	<title>Comments on: A radical definition of Open Education</title>
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	<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/</link>
	<description>Pontydysgu - Educational Research</description>
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		<title>By: Openness and the Future of Education&#160;&#124;&#160;weiterbildungsblog</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-40939</link>
		<dc:creator>Openness and the Future of Education&#160;&#124;&#160;weiterbildungsblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-40939</guid>
		<description>[...] haben, siehe die Beiträge von George Siemens, Frances Bell, Jim Groom, Stephen Downes und Graham Attwell. Zu ihnen gehört von der ersten Stunde an David Wiley (Brigham Young University). Auch diese [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] haben, siehe die Beiträge von George Siemens, Frances Bell, Jim Groom, Stephen Downes und Graham Attwell. Zu ihnen gehört von der ersten Stunde an David Wiley (Brigham Young University). Auch diese [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pontydysgu – Bridge to Learning » Blog Archive » A radical &#8230; &#124; Drakz Free Online Service</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-40109</link>
		<dc:creator>Pontydysgu – Bridge to Learning » Blog Archive » A radical &#8230; &#124; Drakz Free Online Service</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 12:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-40109</guid>
		<description>[...] the original here: Pontydysgu – Bridge to Learning » Blog Archive » A radical &#8230;   Share and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the original here: Pontydysgu – Bridge to Learning » Blog Archive » A radical &#8230;   Share and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Leigh Blackall</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39938</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh Blackall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 05:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39938</guid>
		<description>Great to see Illich being referenced! It has frustrated me no end that our conversations about networked learning and open education have neglected to quote his work and legacy at length. I think its important, to understanding he&#039;s Learning Webs and Deschooling ideas, to also study 2 more texts by Illich: 1. Tools of Conviviality and 2. Energy and Equity. Deschooling Society stands alone OK (as a quick and obvious reference in this discuissuon), but the 2 further readings really emphasise the depth of not only Illich&#039;s critique, but his proposed alternatives. 

This comment relates to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/the-open-education-debate-ideology-and-boundary-objects/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;your citation of my comment&lt;/a&gt; on George&#039;s blog, that we already have the radicals. For me personally, I refer to Chompsky, McLuhan, Illich, Postman and Friere for ideological inspiration. I think they are popular enough to enable a reasonably shared experience with enough people to gain a conversation and even collaboration around their ideas. I&#039;m still looking for that in the education sector :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great to see Illich being referenced! It has frustrated me no end that our conversations about networked learning and open education have neglected to quote his work and legacy at length. I think its important, to understanding he&#8217;s Learning Webs and Deschooling ideas, to also study 2 more texts by Illich: 1. Tools of Conviviality and 2. Energy and Equity. Deschooling Society stands alone OK (as a quick and obvious reference in this discuissuon), but the 2 further readings really emphasise the depth of not only Illich&#8217;s critique, but his proposed alternatives. </p>
<p>This comment relates to <a href="http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/the-open-education-debate-ideology-and-boundary-objects/" rel="nofollow">your citation of my comment</a> on George&#8217;s blog, that we already have the radicals. For me personally, I refer to Chompsky, McLuhan, Illich, Postman and Friere for ideological inspiration. I think they are popular enough to enable a reasonably shared experience with enough people to gain a conversation and even collaboration around their ideas. I&#8217;m still looking for that in the education sector <img src='http://www.pontydysgu.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Defining Openness Debate Continues &#171;</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39786</link>
		<dc:creator>Defining Openness Debate Continues &#171;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39786</guid>
		<description>[...]  Last week OEN reported on a post by George Siemens on defining openness. The discussion continues; Graham Atwell places the debate in terms of larger social change. Judy Breck relates it to networks. From [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Last week OEN reported on a post by George Siemens on defining openness. The discussion continues; Graham Atwell places the debate in terms of larger social change. Judy Breck relates it to networks. From [...]</p>
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		<title>By: edumorfosis (Antonio Delgado)</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39772</link>
		<dc:creator>edumorfosis (Antonio Delgado)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 13:47:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39772</guid>
		<description>A radical definition of Open Education http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A radical definition of Open Education <a href="http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/" rel="nofollow">http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/</a></p>
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		<title>By: jpallis001 (John Pallister)</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39653</link>
		<dc:creator>jpallis001 (John Pallister)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39653</guid>
		<description>7% of population account for 75% of judges, 70% of finance directors, 45% of top civil servants and 32% of MPs. http://tinyurl.com/yehz4oc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>7% of population account for 75% of judges, 70% of finance directors, 45% of top civil servants and 32% of MPs. <a href="http://tinyurl.com/yehz4oc" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/yehz4oc</a></p>
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		<title>By: Puntopanto, bloggers she wrote &#124; Una metrica per l&#8217;educazione aperta</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39608</link>
		<dc:creator>Puntopanto, bloggers she wrote &#124; Una metrica per l&#8217;educazione aperta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 23:50:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39608</guid>
		<description>[...] Attwell risponde dal Galles che il dibattito sui contenuti aperti è piuttosto riduttivo, se non si cambia radicalmente il modo di educare: come sottolineato da Danah Boyd che cita Jenkins [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Attwell risponde dal Galles che il dibattito sui contenuti aperti è piuttosto riduttivo, se non si cambia radicalmente il modo di educare: come sottolineato da Danah Boyd che cita Jenkins [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Manish Malik</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39593</link>
		<dc:creator>Manish Malik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 19:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39593</guid>
		<description>many universities have now gone google not &quot;not gone google&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>many universities have now gone google not &#8220;not gone google&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Manish Malik</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39592</link>
		<dc:creator>Manish Malik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 19:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39592</guid>
		<description>This is so timely. I agree with  the quote from Ivan Illich&#039;s work on lifelong learning and also about what a good education system should be like.

Learning is a life-long thing. Empowering the learner as well as the mentor at the same level can result in neumerous possiblities and opportunities for learners and mentors to come together. OERs are a good starting point agreed.

The reason I say its so timely is because many universities are not #gonegoogle #goneMS #gonecloud, this has empowered the learner and the academics at the same level by using cloud learning environment (CLEs), examples include Google Apps Education edition but not limited to, its not quite &quot;deschooling society&quot; but its certainly de-institutionalising the learning environment. Google Apps designed for end user in mind not the Institution.

Usng a CLE a learner can continue their journey as a lifelong learner even after they have graduated, using the same set of tools the CLE offered when they were at their institution. To achieve the Lifelong learning aim, what lacks here is the &quot;peer-matching network&quot; buts its not impossible to get that going. So, you come in an institution, use the CLE, that may be the same as what they were using at a previous institution/generally, make your peer network, continue after graduation using the same CLE, expand your network and be a lifelong learning.


Now for the Personal Learning Network and complete deschooling - I do not think we need a personal learning network as that would be unsustainable, a peer-matching network in and around an institutional model of education would do just as well. I say this as complete deschooling is also unsustainable. 

Also PLNs will also be prone to the race and class divide. I do not know what will over come this divide. Technological empowerment will not relieve us from societal structures (similar to what D Boyd quote says).

Learning is a quest, a challenge and to quite someone &quot;a bit like a gym membership&quot;. Openness seems to suggest that anyone can join in, even those who are gonna take up the membership but not be motivated to engage. I know your post is not about this, but its a risk that this happens. 

Empowering users of academic institutions (staff and students) with technological means to form and expand peer-networks and looking at learning as a combination of formal as well as informal learning and a lifelong process are key IMHO. Learning never stops, why should a learning environment be like a walled garden? Learning is not just formal or just informal so why go de-schooling? Education system should engulf learning where it happens...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is so timely. I agree with  the quote from Ivan Illich&#8217;s work on lifelong learning and also about what a good education system should be like.</p>
<p>Learning is a life-long thing. Empowering the learner as well as the mentor at the same level can result in neumerous possiblities and opportunities for learners and mentors to come together. OERs are a good starting point agreed.</p>
<p>The reason I say its so timely is because many universities are not #gonegoogle #goneMS #gonecloud, this has empowered the learner and the academics at the same level by using cloud learning environment (CLEs), examples include Google Apps Education edition but not limited to, its not quite &#8220;deschooling society&#8221; but its certainly de-institutionalising the learning environment. Google Apps designed for end user in mind not the Institution.</p>
<p>Usng a CLE a learner can continue their journey as a lifelong learner even after they have graduated, using the same set of tools the CLE offered when they were at their institution. To achieve the Lifelong learning aim, what lacks here is the &#8220;peer-matching network&#8221; buts its not impossible to get that going. So, you come in an institution, use the CLE, that may be the same as what they were using at a previous institution/generally, make your peer network, continue after graduation using the same CLE, expand your network and be a lifelong learning.</p>
<p>Now for the Personal Learning Network and complete deschooling &#8211; I do not think we need a personal learning network as that would be unsustainable, a peer-matching network in and around an institutional model of education would do just as well. I say this as complete deschooling is also unsustainable. </p>
<p>Also PLNs will also be prone to the race and class divide. I do not know what will over come this divide. Technological empowerment will not relieve us from societal structures (similar to what D Boyd quote says).</p>
<p>Learning is a quest, a challenge and to quite someone &#8220;a bit like a gym membership&#8221;. Openness seems to suggest that anyone can join in, even those who are gonna take up the membership but not be motivated to engage. I know your post is not about this, but its a risk that this happens. </p>
<p>Empowering users of academic institutions (staff and students) with technological means to form and expand peer-networks and looking at learning as a combination of formal as well as informal learning and a lifelong process are key IMHO. Learning never stops, why should a learning environment be like a walled garden? Learning is not just formal or just informal so why go de-schooling? Education system should engulf learning where it happens&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39586</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 17:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39586</guid>
		<description>I blogged on the need for ideology in HE during ALT-C09 [http://www.learnex.dmu.ac.uk/?p=1788]. This is in a different, institutional context from that which you promote, but you are right that &quot;the debate is to narrow and too focused on Open Educational Resources.&quot; Where are the ideas? From where might change emerge? In England and Wales current Governmental obsessions [Higher Ambitions] hinder radicalism [again I railed at: http://www.learnex.dmu.ac.uk/?p=1847].

I will be interested to see where your thinking goes with this, especially in light of the work that I and @josswinn are undertaking on Resilient Education [http://www.learnex.dmu.ac.uk/?p=1924 and http://joss.blogs.lincoln.ac.uk/2009/12/11/energy-the-economy-and-resilience/]

Be good.

Richard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I blogged on the need for ideology in HE during ALT-C09 [http://www.learnex.dmu.ac.uk/?p=1788]. This is in a different, institutional context from that which you promote, but you are right that &#8220;the debate is to narrow and too focused on Open Educational Resources.&#8221; Where are the ideas? From where might change emerge? In England and Wales current Governmental obsessions [Higher Ambitions] hinder radicalism [again I railed at: <a href="http://www.learnex.dmu.ac.uk/?p=1847" rel="nofollow">http://www.learnex.dmu.ac.uk/?p=1847</a>.</p>
<p>I will be interested to see where your thinking goes with this, especially in light of the work that I and @josswinn are undertaking on Resilient Education [http://www.learnex.dmu.ac.uk/?p=1924 and <a href="http://joss.blogs.lincoln.ac.uk/2009/12/11/energy-the-economy-and-resilience/" rel="nofollow">http://joss.blogs.lincoln.ac.uk/2009/12/11/energy-the-economy-and-resilience/</a></p>
<p>Be good.</p>
<p>Richard.</p>
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		<title>By: jpallis001 (John Pallister)</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39541</link>
		<dc:creator>jpallis001 (John Pallister)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 05:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39541</guid>
		<description>good to see 2010 starting with review of &#039;Open&#039; in education by: &lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; href=&quot;http://twitter.com/gsiemens&quot;&gt;@gsiemens&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; href=&quot;http://twitter.com/GrahamAttwell&quot;&gt;@GrahamAttwell&lt;/a&gt;    etc  http://tinyurl.com/yehz4oc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>good to see 2010 starting with review of &#8216;Open&#8217; in education by: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://twitter.com/gsiemens">@gsiemens</a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://twitter.com/GrahamAttwell">@GrahamAttwell</a>    etc  <a href="http://tinyurl.com/yehz4oc" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/yehz4oc</a></p>
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		<title>By: Terry Wassall</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39497</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry Wassall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39497</guid>
		<description>Fascinating post and disturbing stats. One of the difficulties in facilitating access to HE open education resources is that it is not clear who will use them or how other than people who have already benefited from post 16 education. The digital divide is not so much lack of access to the internet and web (although this is still a problem for the socially excluded and disadvantaged) but in access to the sorts of information literacy skills and access to the &#039;right&#039; people, i.e. perhaps the right sort of &#039;open tutors&#039;  and &#039;open scholars&#039; who are not wedded to the orthodox transmission forms of pedagogy. This could be summed up as a lack of the right sort of social capital. I agree with you that the emphasis has been mainly on open education resources rather than thinking about who the open learners might be and the various sorts of open learning processes that would link open education resources to open learners via social  collaborative open social learning practices. I have been struggling with his for some time now and not made mcuh progress! Thanks for the reference to Illich&#039;s notion of &#039;learning webs&#039;. It looks as if it could be an important way of thinking practically about open education and learning processes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating post and disturbing stats. One of the difficulties in facilitating access to HE open education resources is that it is not clear who will use them or how other than people who have already benefited from post 16 education. The digital divide is not so much lack of access to the internet and web (although this is still a problem for the socially excluded and disadvantaged) but in access to the sorts of information literacy skills and access to the &#8216;right&#8217; people, i.e. perhaps the right sort of &#8216;open tutors&#8217;  and &#8216;open scholars&#8217; who are not wedded to the orthodox transmission forms of pedagogy. This could be summed up as a lack of the right sort of social capital. I agree with you that the emphasis has been mainly on open education resources rather than thinking about who the open learners might be and the various sorts of open learning processes that would link open education resources to open learners via social  collaborative open social learning practices. I have been struggling with his for some time now and not made mcuh progress! Thanks for the reference to Illich&#8217;s notion of &#8216;learning webs&#8217;. It looks as if it could be an important way of thinking practically about open education and learning processes.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham Attwell</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39496</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Attwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39496</guid>
		<description>Sorry Stephen - corrected</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Stephen &#8211; corrected</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Downes</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39493</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Downes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39493</guid>
		<description>My name is spelled with a &#039;ph&#039;. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My name is spelled with a &#8216;ph&#8217;. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Josie</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39476</link>
		<dc:creator>Josie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 18:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39476</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this analysis and the resources. Those UK stats on class, education, and achievement are alarming but not surprising. What&#039;s distressing is that it only seems to head in the wrong direction. All those post 1944 hopes dashed although I do think there was progress made in those decades. 
The Welsh have a word for it - dysgeidliaeth - teaching and learning as one. For everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this analysis and the resources. Those UK stats on class, education, and achievement are alarming but not surprising. What&#8217;s distressing is that it only seems to head in the wrong direction. All those post 1944 hopes dashed although I do think there was progress made in those decades.<br />
The Welsh have a word for it &#8211; dysgeidliaeth &#8211; teaching and learning as one. For everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Pontydysgu – Bridge to Learning » Blog Archive » A radical definition of Open Education -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.pontydysgu.org/2010/01/a-radical-definition-of-open-education/comment-page-1/#comment-39469</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Pontydysgu – Bridge to Learning » Blog Archive » A radical definition of Open Education -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 17:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pontydysgu.org/?p=2581#comment-39469</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Steve Wheeler, Graham Attwell and topsy_top20k, topsy_top20k_en. topsy_top20k_en said: @gsiemens says &quot;We need some good ol’ radicals in open education&quot;. Here&#039;s my reply in a new blog post - http://is.gd/5IUMi [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Steve Wheeler, Graham Attwell and topsy_top20k, topsy_top20k_en. topsy_top20k_en said: @gsiemens says &quot;We need some good ol’ radicals in open education&quot;. Here&#39;s my reply in a new blog post &#8211; <a href="http://is.gd/5IUMi" rel="nofollow">http://is.gd/5IUMi</a> [...]</p>
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